A couple of days ago the local Salt Lake City questioned Rep. Lavar Christensen (R) about House Bill 270. This was his response if you can call it that....
Here is the bill:
Be it enacted by the Legislature of the state of Utah:
Section 1. Section 30-1-4.2 is enacted to read:
30-1-4.2. Public policy in support of family.
(1) The institution of marriage and family, consisting of the legal union of a man and a woman and children conceived and born to, or adopted by, the married couple as father and mother, is the fundamental unit of society and the optimum environment in which to nurture and raise a child.
Sure.... when the marriage works and both parents love each other and when there is sufficient money and education and when the rainbow touches ground where the unicorns walk. But what about those equally beautiful alternatives. When two people love each other and they are same sexed? What about the times when the traditional family mode does not work?
This is a public policy statement. That means the rules the agencies provide services under are free to dismiss the alternative lifestyles people may choose. That is why this is more concerning than the typical non binding resolutions that the Utah State Righteouslature passes. Additionally, let's acknowledge that this law only restricts the legal union to a man and a woman here on earth.... not in the three kingdoms of glory where polygamy is still practiced and polygamous marriages are still sanctioned and sealed for eternity in the temples of the lord and this is where the hypocrisy lies.
(2) Marriage and family predate all governments and are supported by and consistent with the Laws of Nature and Nature's God, the Creator and Supreme Judge of the World, affirmed in the nation's founding Declaration of Independence.
This is where the law runs completely off the tracks constitutionally. You cannot canonize the existence of any god in state law. It violates the separation clause of the Constitution. Nor can you claim a creator exists in the natural law without proof.
Marriage and family do not predate any goverments. Marriage by definition is: "The social institution under which a man and woman establish their decision to live as husband and wife by legal commitments, religious ceremonies, etc." Whether controlled by religious or legal expression the institution was established by a governance. The government may have been religious dogma or secular laws but it is a government none-the-less. Before the establishment of governments (either religious or secular) there was no legitimate basis for marriage. This clause as a policy statement represents logical fallacy and a supposition that there is really a God and that he give two hoots in hell what we do.
Finally, when will creationists stop using the Declaration of Independence as a basis for our governance. The declaration was the document that plunged the new American Society into chaos. It did not establish an interim government and was not meant to. It merely vented our grievances to the dictator that oppressed us and was really today's version of a middle finger. The Confederate Papers where the first for of governance and they were replaced by our secular constitution that says nothing about a god.
(3) Marriage represents the legal sanction and approval of society and is essential to ordered liberty and public virtue.
The bold highlight is what this is really about. However our constitution is designed to protect even those who are minorities. That is why Utah and it's predominant religion has survived. Because if it was subject to the approval of society it would have never been able to thrive. As a legal sanction, one that is the be mediated by our courts, it must be a secular exercise. In fact, the marriages provided justices of the peace are equally binding as those performed in a church and the only thing that makes a marriage binding is the marriage license signed by both parties. Not the ritual.
The claim that marriage is essential to ordered liberty falls flat when you consider that 50% of all marriages fail. Of the 50% that survive it is unlikely that all are "happy".
(4) Procreation within marriage links generations and is fundamental to the perpetuity of humanity.
Linking generations has nothing to do with the perpetuity of humanity. Procreation does.... but our humanity is not determined by our ability to procreate or our attachment to a ritual that was developed to lay claim to property. It is determined by our ability to engage in compassion and nurture and care for all members of our species without prejudice based upon tribal bonds. Marriage does not serve all of the species nor should it bind two people who no longer desire to be together.
(5) (a) Families anchored by both a father and a mother, fidelity within marriage, and enduring devotion to the covenants and responsibilities of marriage are the desired norm.
Until it no longer works for both parties.
(b) Cultures and societies where laws, practices, and public policies protect, preserve, and promote such enduring and time-honored family values and principles are happiest,healthiest, and most stable.
Show me how this is true... besides you say it true. Cultures and societies who value each and every individual no matter what their orientation, isn't that what this is really about, are the happiest and healthiest and most stable. Cultures who look critically at religion and it's claims are happiest and healthiest. Cultures who have an evidence base not superstition and supposition are really exercising the time-honored tradition of using our intelligence to further the species.
(6) The furtherance and protection of order and public morality are legitimate and substantial government interests.
Marriage does not protect the public morality. In fact before we declare it does please define "Public Morality." The idea of public morality is an intrusion on the individual in this context. We are not talking about public sex, public nudity, or public sacrifice. We are talking about giving everyone the same rights and acknowledging that homosexuality is no more prevalent now that it has been historically and there is significant evidence that it has a genetic component. Truth is at the center of our substantial government interest not the nonsense contained in this bill.
(7) To the extent social problems arise that adversely affect the desired optimum family condition, such as the dissolution of marriage, crime, poverty, immorality, violence, and other conditions that place added responsibilities on individuals and communities through publicly funded and administered social programs and government services, laws and regulations shall be carefully scrutinized to determine how they impact the family and the protection of children.
We already have public policy and laws that deal with violence and immorality as it applies to a child that cannot consent. We do not need the government to determine what is immoral between consenting adults. It is foolish to declare society as a victim where there is no proof this is the case. An unwed parent reproducing has no greater effect on society than a married couple reproducing 8, 9, 10 times without the ability to support the child they bring into the world. One is not more sacred or more moral than the other. Unless we are willing to control when and how all people reproduce this statement has all the vibrato of a one handed golf clap. If you are serious about improving marriage as an institution then promote sex education that discusses, frankly how babies are made and how to prevent them and how to best engage in a relationship with another human that reflects the real world not your ideal version of it.
In this paragraph the item of most concern is the alluding to controlling the dissolution of marriage. The representative even alludes to this in his interview. He doesn't want no fault divorces. To bind two people together, when one does not what to be in the relationship, assigns the disaffected person to the role of property. That is immoral.
(8) (a) The laws of the state shall, to the fullest extent possible, strengthen, safeguard, and sustain families.
Again..... sex education... comprehensive sex eduction required in middle school and all 4 years of high school.
(b) They shall respect and promote the essential and complementary roles of both a father and a mother and uphold this public policy for the greatest public good.
The greatest public good comes from respecting the individual and in helping them reach their potential. Not by dogmatic laws that are designed to strip the rights of a valuable class of our species. Mr. Christensen this law is immoral and indefensible. Come to us with the specific studies that support your claim, not sound bites from the last General Conference. You have failed to do your due diligence. You were asked to provide justification for this bill by the reporter. Start by answering the questions and providing the proof and then draft a bill supported by evidence. Your personal morality may work for you but it does not work for anybody else.
(Cue the unicorns)
Showing posts with label god. Show all posts
Showing posts with label god. Show all posts
Friday, February 4, 2011
Wednesday, March 24, 2010
Discussion Topic--Are we born with God

I have found recently, from all the noise on Facebook about the recent passage of the Health Care bill there has very little investigation of the issue beyond the bumper sticker rhetoric. I am looking to have a discussion. One where the topic is explored thoroughly with opposing view points in a respectful fashion. I thought I might start that discussion here with this topic:
Are We Born with God?
I have been confronted recently on both Facebook and here in this blog with peoples assertion of faith and the idea that I am a fool because I have none. As many know I started as a Christian (Mormon). I didn't have any real sense of what that meant until I was 8 or 9 and I was done with it at 16.
Here is what I think about the question for starters:
Religion is largely geographic. Where you live is will influence the religion you belong to.
"God" varies depending on location and historical period. The Judeo-Christian God was only known in a small region of the world until after the fall of Rome. Mono-thesism was not globally accepted until the beginning of the last milennium.
"God" in concept has to be taught.
This is meant to be a discussion not an argument/fight. You can give your opinion but be prepared to back it up with evidence/support for you opinion.
I am really interested in ideas and am hoping that most will participate.
Facebook friends follow the link to the original post and post comments on the blog.
Sunday, January 3, 2010
God Delusion-Video
I have often said out loud that everything that is wrong with this world was created by organized religion. This video shows not historical examples but examples that are contemporary to today's world.
Wednesday, November 18, 2009
Christian Nation?
We are romping into the holiday season and in the United States that means Thanksgiving kicks off the Christmas season. I personally have a love/hate relationship with Christmas. I decorate for the holidays and have a great time doing it. I do not believe however that Jesus was the Christ or even a real person nor do I think someone else's death will give me salvation.
This season also brings out the pre-legislative session bills and those who claim there is a war on Christmas and Christianity. I read a facebook status today that for some reason got under my skin.
Now I personally do not care how many people on facebook profess their love for god or admit that Jesus is their savior. I think that is their right and conversely they should leave me to my atheist rants as well because that is my right. I am however concerned about the idea that we need "to get god back in America"!?! I watched a Brian Dalton lecture the other night resonated with my feelings on this subject. Brian Dalton does the popular "Mr. Deity" series on YouTube. Here is a clip;
We continue to operate under the premise of American exceptional ism stating boldly that 'god wanted us to settle this country and we are the greatest country in the world because god wants us to be'. This belief is not only foolish but it is dangerous.
When we are demanding that god be returned to our country are we demanding it be the Christian god only? Or if we bring god back can it be the Muslim god? How about a Hindu god? You see I firmly believe that god only exists in our individual minds. Your definition of god is not the same as your neighbors. In fact no two people in the same congregation will see god in the same way. The problem is that as humans we are willing to kill each other over who we believe is right.
As we move into the 2010 legislative session our conservative legislature is lining up a series of bills that will help return god to our country. The first in the series now out is a push to remove the phrase "Liberally Construed" from the rules. Not because it is bad for the agencies who are charged with the rule to "liberally" interpret or to loosely apply the rule but because it has the word "liberal" in it and liberals are against god. The Salt Lake Tribune Columnist Paul Rolly recently drew a line between the movement of Conservapedia to the Eagle Forum who is pushing to have the language removed from the rules(and there are many). The Eagle Forum has the second biggest voice on the hill next to the LDS Church. This gives the Neo-Conservative Fascist Gayle Ruzicka more access than the average citizen because she represents what god wants.
I would challenge any and all religious people to put their focus on their fellow man. This year especially. Forget about getting god back into America and look out for all Americans not just your fellow Christians. Don't do it because god wants you to or because its what Jesus would do but because it the the right thing to do.
This season also brings out the pre-legislative session bills and those who claim there is a war on Christmas and Christianity. I read a facebook status today that for some reason got under my skin.
Let's see how many people on fb aren't ashamed to show their love for God and admit that Jesus is their Savior... We need to get God back in America... If you're not ashamed, copy and paste this in your status... P.S. - "Question with boldness, hold to the truth, and speak without fear!" - Glenn Beck
Now I personally do not care how many people on facebook profess their love for god or admit that Jesus is their savior. I think that is their right and conversely they should leave me to my atheist rants as well because that is my right. I am however concerned about the idea that we need "to get god back in America"!?! I watched a Brian Dalton lecture the other night resonated with my feelings on this subject. Brian Dalton does the popular "Mr. Deity" series on YouTube. Here is a clip;
We continue to operate under the premise of American exceptional ism stating boldly that 'god wanted us to settle this country and we are the greatest country in the world because god wants us to be'. This belief is not only foolish but it is dangerous.
When we are demanding that god be returned to our country are we demanding it be the Christian god only? Or if we bring god back can it be the Muslim god? How about a Hindu god? You see I firmly believe that god only exists in our individual minds. Your definition of god is not the same as your neighbors. In fact no two people in the same congregation will see god in the same way. The problem is that as humans we are willing to kill each other over who we believe is right.
As we move into the 2010 legislative session our conservative legislature is lining up a series of bills that will help return god to our country. The first in the series now out is a push to remove the phrase "Liberally Construed" from the rules. Not because it is bad for the agencies who are charged with the rule to "liberally" interpret or to loosely apply the rule but because it has the word "liberal" in it and liberals are against god. The Salt Lake Tribune Columnist Paul Rolly recently drew a line between the movement of Conservapedia to the Eagle Forum who is pushing to have the language removed from the rules(and there are many). The Eagle Forum has the second biggest voice on the hill next to the LDS Church. This gives the Neo-Conservative Fascist Gayle Ruzicka more access than the average citizen because she represents what god wants.
I would challenge any and all religious people to put their focus on their fellow man. This year especially. Forget about getting god back into America and look out for all Americans not just your fellow Christians. Don't do it because god wants you to or because its what Jesus would do but because it the the right thing to do.
Thursday, August 27, 2009
Who would have thought Roger Ebert Ponders Such Things
I liked this essay. My Facebook friend Fred Hunting posted this link and I think it is a worthy read. My favorite line was is final sentence. "I am more content with the question than I would be with an answer."
http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/2009/04/how_i_believe_in_g.html
http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/2009/04/how_i_believe_in_g.html
Friday, August 14, 2009
Children are the Challenge-The Argument
My last post addressed how I have chose not to give religion to my children and how that affected my daughter Jessica. I have thought the post may leave the reader with the impression that I am a typical religion hating atheist. While that may be true to some degree it is a judgment made without context.
I grew up in American Fork, Utah. My mother moved to the community when I was about 5 years old. She had recently divorced my father. When I was 7 we moved into our family home after my parents reconciled and remarried. I remember the first contact my parents had with the local LDS bishop. We had been moving in all day. The LDS bishop came to the door to welcome my parents to the ward. My father greeted him at the door with a cup of coffee in one hand and a cigarette in the other. The bishop’s response was “Well I guess we won’t be seeing you in church!”
My parents made the attempt to become active in the LDS church. This was a religion handed down to them from their parents and grandparents. They didn’t have any real understanding of the church or its teaching and I dare say none of them have read the Book of Mormon. I was the beneficiary of the passing of generational superstition. My folks believed that sending me to church would give me a good moral foundation.
I took to my calling as a little boy. I faithfully attended church services every Sunday and the meetings for Boy Scouts and Mutual. I was so dedicated that I often got my siblings up on Sunday morning, (while my parents slept) had them get dressed and took them church with me. Mind you I was about 8 or 9 taking my 6 year old and 7 year old sisters. I probably new very little about making sure their hair was combed and their clothes matched.
At 8 years old I was eligible to be baptized and become a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. At eight, I knew I had doubts that I could live up the expectations. The doctrine indicated that I would be baptized and my sins would be washed away and I would have a new start. I am not sure what sins I had committed up to that point or that I needed to be free of them. I found it odd that I was going to have them washed away at my one and only chance at salvation at age eight. I thought it might be better to wait until I had committed a really big sin first so that I could get more bang for my buck out of this washed away sin salvation thing.
Despite sending me away to church to get my moral foundation my parents were still active in my upbringing. Alas that is what ultimately spared me a lot of pain as I moved into early adolescence. My bishop called me in for an interview to determine my moral ability to receive the Aaronic Priesthood. He asked me about my testimony and my church attendance and then the interview digressed into my sexual habits. He wanted to know if I was sexually active with the same sex, the opposite sex and if I masturbated. I was 12. I denied all of the above because I had no idea what any of it really meant. I was a late bloomer and still prepubescent. I later told my mother about the interview and she was outraged. It was discovered that he had also asked the same questions of my 10 year old sister. My Father and Mother both met with the Bishop and told him the line of questions was inappropriate and they forbade him to ask them of any of their children. That man was arrested and convicted of Sexual Abuse of a Child several years later. When I was 20 I found out that he had told several of the boys in the ward to stay away from me because I was a homosexual. The boy who told me about it was this man’s victim. He wanted to isolate me from the group and the only reason I was not his victim was because my parents were active in my upbringing.
My father has advised me often that I should send my children to church. His rationale is, “What can it hurt at least they get a good moral foundation.” I have said before that there is a ton of emotional baggage that comes from religion. Guilt, irresolvable double binds, hate, intolerance, and self loathing are but a few. We worry more about what our children see on TV and who their friends are than who we let play with their minds in a religious context. We have no proof that there is salvation on the other side but we are willing to damage our children in the hope there is. I have seen religious people allow horrible things happen to their children at the hands of a religious leader because they believe he is called of god. These things range from emotional abuse to physical and sexual abuse.
Religion was not the basis of my moral conscience it was my parents’ involvement in my life, my own personality traits, and an innate sense of guilt and responsibility that provided me with character to be a moral person. There has been as much evil done in the name of god and religion as good and I do not think that with the mixed results that religion has delivered it is the appropriate mentor for my children.
I grew up in American Fork, Utah. My mother moved to the community when I was about 5 years old. She had recently divorced my father. When I was 7 we moved into our family home after my parents reconciled and remarried. I remember the first contact my parents had with the local LDS bishop. We had been moving in all day. The LDS bishop came to the door to welcome my parents to the ward. My father greeted him at the door with a cup of coffee in one hand and a cigarette in the other. The bishop’s response was “Well I guess we won’t be seeing you in church!”
My parents made the attempt to become active in the LDS church. This was a religion handed down to them from their parents and grandparents. They didn’t have any real understanding of the church or its teaching and I dare say none of them have read the Book of Mormon. I was the beneficiary of the passing of generational superstition. My folks believed that sending me to church would give me a good moral foundation.
I took to my calling as a little boy. I faithfully attended church services every Sunday and the meetings for Boy Scouts and Mutual. I was so dedicated that I often got my siblings up on Sunday morning, (while my parents slept) had them get dressed and took them church with me. Mind you I was about 8 or 9 taking my 6 year old and 7 year old sisters. I probably new very little about making sure their hair was combed and their clothes matched.
At 8 years old I was eligible to be baptized and become a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. At eight, I knew I had doubts that I could live up the expectations. The doctrine indicated that I would be baptized and my sins would be washed away and I would have a new start. I am not sure what sins I had committed up to that point or that I needed to be free of them. I found it odd that I was going to have them washed away at my one and only chance at salvation at age eight. I thought it might be better to wait until I had committed a really big sin first so that I could get more bang for my buck out of this washed away sin salvation thing.
Despite sending me away to church to get my moral foundation my parents were still active in my upbringing. Alas that is what ultimately spared me a lot of pain as I moved into early adolescence. My bishop called me in for an interview to determine my moral ability to receive the Aaronic Priesthood. He asked me about my testimony and my church attendance and then the interview digressed into my sexual habits. He wanted to know if I was sexually active with the same sex, the opposite sex and if I masturbated. I was 12. I denied all of the above because I had no idea what any of it really meant. I was a late bloomer and still prepubescent. I later told my mother about the interview and she was outraged. It was discovered that he had also asked the same questions of my 10 year old sister. My Father and Mother both met with the Bishop and told him the line of questions was inappropriate and they forbade him to ask them of any of their children. That man was arrested and convicted of Sexual Abuse of a Child several years later. When I was 20 I found out that he had told several of the boys in the ward to stay away from me because I was a homosexual. The boy who told me about it was this man’s victim. He wanted to isolate me from the group and the only reason I was not his victim was because my parents were active in my upbringing.
My father has advised me often that I should send my children to church. His rationale is, “What can it hurt at least they get a good moral foundation.” I have said before that there is a ton of emotional baggage that comes from religion. Guilt, irresolvable double binds, hate, intolerance, and self loathing are but a few. We worry more about what our children see on TV and who their friends are than who we let play with their minds in a religious context. We have no proof that there is salvation on the other side but we are willing to damage our children in the hope there is. I have seen religious people allow horrible things happen to their children at the hands of a religious leader because they believe he is called of god. These things range from emotional abuse to physical and sexual abuse.
Religion was not the basis of my moral conscience it was my parents’ involvement in my life, my own personality traits, and an innate sense of guilt and responsibility that provided me with character to be a moral person. There has been as much evil done in the name of god and religion as good and I do not think that with the mixed results that religion has delivered it is the appropriate mentor for my children.
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