Tuesday, January 26, 2010

"Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain"


From the Mormon Times Monday January 25, 2010:

"Readers have no way of knowing which critical claims have already been discredited, and the anti-Mormon sponsors are certainly not going to tell them right there on the site," he said.

The democratization of ideas sometimes confuses the reader as to what is true and what is not, as all ideas are presented horizontally and as fact, thus positioning the blogger's flippant opinion alongside the scholar's well-researched dissertation.

Elder Hafen said there is much discussion out there regarding the methods through which Joseph Smith translated ancient scripture such as the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price and the Bible. That's all fine and good so long as the questioner is mainly focused on the works themselves, the great mountains of eternal knowledge they contain, and what that knowledge means in the lives of God's children rather than on the specifics of the revelatory process.

"How (Joseph Smith) received it doesn't ultimately matter to us very much," he said.

Elder Hafen said the "mountain" that is of most importance is the fact that all people are children of a loving, concerned father in heaven.

So long as a person has that tenant down pat, they'll be able to explore more challenging ideas, and even deal with unanswered questions.


The above excerpt of a summary of a fireside speech given by Bruce C. Hafen struck me as funny...not as in a ha ha but a strange sort of way. I, as a flippant blogger, struggle with the amount of cognitive dissonance that is required here to suspend disbelief. While Elder Hafen encourages study; he discourages examining the facts on their own. Instead he suggests the examiner defer to the writings of the scholars who I assume would mean FAIR or FARMS. I have read the summarizing and distortion of history on the scholar’s sites and am left questioning “what the definition of is…is”

The reality here is that Elder Hafen, as a General Authority, should be in a position to speak with authority regarding the doctrinal issues surrounding the translation of the “sacred texts” and what the methods therein mean to the veracity of those texts. Instead, according to the summary of his speech, he obfuscates. He does not address for the member and especially for the member who is in question what the truth is. Members and seekers alike who research this material by using the apologist sites offered by the “scholars” are in many cases left with a WTF response to the convoluted distortions.

The facts are:

• Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon, not by reading the plates or and translating them character by character but by burying his head in his hat with two seer stones (urmin and thummin) inside the hat.

• He didn’t have to “write the story” he “told the story” to his scribes. In many cases the “plates” were not in the room. Of all the scribes only three died as members of the church. The rest either left or were excommunicated.

• The seer stones were the same stones he used to hunt treasure with.
This photo is the one the LDS church uses to illustrate the process. Indeed this is a misrepresentation of historical facts and accounts surrounding the actual events.



Elder Hafen suggests the reader should be interested in the works and their content not the way the content came to be. This double bind is common in cognitive dissonance. If you don't get it it's your fault....try harder! It has also been postulated that the character of the man is not as important as the restoration of the gospel. However, a "flippant blogger" is discredited based upon character...why shouldn't a supposed prophet? My offense is sarcasm and skepticism. The man in question here was convicted of treasure hunting, married 30+ women (many of whom were already married), took child brides, engaged in willful destruction of a printing press, and consumed alcohol all after having been selected by god to restore the gospel.

I am of the opinion that character matters and the method at which our works are delivered are of significant importance. To attempt to separate the two creates a psychosis and an unresolvable double bind.

14 comments:

  1. Curmudeon, I check in from time to time and you have some interesting thoughts, but even you can do better than this. Just a thought.

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  2. Hello David, Did you have something to say? Did you want to contribute to the conversation?

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  3. Curmudgeon,
    That was all I had to say. Your post is articulate and you make your points well. However, there is nothing new here in arguments against the LDS Church, history, et al.

    It is the same stuff. That is my point. I can trace many of these arguments back circa 1832. Why are again and again these arguments when held up to real scholarly challenge, turned over on their heads?

    You can repackage a Velvet Elvis in a new plastic display case and call it a Fuzzy Elvis, but it is still a velvet elvis.

    So I am not convinced. Being the free thinker that I am, I study the facts. And the fact that I make is this. The LDS Faith can stand on its own merits and not that of any apologetic group. It helps to have defenders, but it is not necessary. Faith is what makes or breaks a religion. And if Mormonism is a fraud, then it is up to those who argue against it disprove faith itself. And that cannot be done unless the individual is pursuaded by someone such as yourself, to have it broken.

    My two cents and my honest thoughts.

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  4. David, I don’t understand. Which points of history in my post are not true? Which are not factual or fail to stand on their face without explanation? Your argument that “faith makes or breaks a religion….And if Mormonism is a fraud, then it is up to those who argue against it disprove faith itself.” is absurd. Faith is like a fog. It is neither graspable nor sustainable and is without a rational or factual basis for existence. It was Bruce C. Hafen that opened this discussion not me. He is the one who called for members to “ignore the man behind the curtain.”

    Mr. Hafen has a desire to control the investigators path to discovery because there is an inherent fear that the LDS Church cannot withstand the scrutiny. It may work for you but to call yourself a “free thinker” you must form your opinions on religion based upon reason without reference to authority, tradition, or established belief. Otherwise your use of the term is disingenuous. With the internet it is not as easy to control the “free thinkers” and so in Hafen’s case he wants to prescribe the method to control the outcome.

    The other fallacy here is that it is up to the non-believer to disprove the basis for faith. Non-belief is the baseline. Babies are born atheists. They have to be indoctrinated to become Catholics, Muslims, and Mormons. Because belief extends beyond the baseline it is up to the religion to prove its claims. “Faith” is merely to acceptance of the un-provable and irrational requiring a suspension of reason.

    “Doctrines of Salvation Vol.1 p. 188”

    “The church stands or falls with Joseph Smith. Mormonism, as it is called, must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned, or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. There is no middle ground. If Joseph Smith was a deceiver, who willfully attempted to mislead the people, then he should be exposed, his claims should be refuted, and his doctrines shown to be false, for the doctrines of an impostor cannot be made to harmonize in all particulars with divine truth. If his claims and declarations were built upon fraud and deceit, there would appear many errors and contradictions, which would be easy to detect.”

    The problem here is that there are many errors and contradictions and they have been easy to detect. There is reasonable doubt and the LDS Church has failed to prove its claims. The historically documented character of Joseph Smith is an indictment of his credibility. The apologist including Bruce C. Hafen attempt to distort the facts around the “ restoration” and confuse the investigator.

    Thanks for your two cents.

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  5. David,
    Are you aware that in am argument or debate that the person making the positive claim (there is a god, my religion is true) has the burden of proof? just an FYI.

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  6. Scrow. I know that there is a God. Now disprove me with science, philosophy, any other thing you can take me on this argument. Since I know that there is a God, I will listen to your argument, but I have it on good Authority, that there is a God. You can believe in no God. I am cool with that. But since I am beyond belief in this respect I would probably not prove valuable to your time for a debate.

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  7. Curmudgeon,
    I appreciate your well stated post on the content. However, in my investigation and coming to my own conclusions, and having studied LDS Church history, I am not a student of Mr. Hafen or any or other scholar.

    There are great pieces out there on both sides of the debate. But, my confirmation of the truthfulness of the LDS Church and my membership in it is not because of indoctrination, but challenging what I am told from the pulpit against the philosophies of scholars, historical scripture, and personal prayer and meditation.

    I have come to the conclusion that faith, things unseen or unheard, yet believed in by an adherent to be true, cannot be proved without the Spirit. I have had the truths of Jesus Christ being the Messiah being confirmed to me. I have had the fact that Mormonism is in fact, the Gospel restored.

    I am a free thinker and have had my beliefs challenged many times, including now. But it is not a GA that has converted me to the truth. It is the Spirit of Truth confirming the information that I sought.

    I do not claim to have perfect faith, or that I am some great spiritual giant, I just know of certain truths, and I am happy with that knowledge.

    If the LDS Church is a fraud, it is one of the best frauds ever developed and carreid out in the world history.

    But I look at results. Far more good has come out of my faith than bad. Are there bad Mormons and less than credible Mormons? Of course. However, it is the Church that is true, not all the people. I am in the Church for my Salvation, not for a social club.

    I follow a Prophet because I choose to take their counsel as counsel from God. Not because of my parents or ancestry. I know of many descendents personally who have rejected the church for various reasons of faithful ancestors.

    So be it. But in the end, every man, woman and child who has lived, lives, and will live will eventually not be able to reject the premise there is a God, or that the Gospel of Christ is the restored truth of Jesus Christ today.

    So I guess that is all I have to say on the matter. If I am wrong I am on my way to hell for being an accomplace in one of the biggest frauds in the history of man.

    If I am right, as I am, then I will have a hope in salvation that I might earn if God wills it for me and I have earned it.

    Thanks,
    Dave

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  8. David I don't think you are on your way to hell because I don't believe in a hell either. I have offered you evidence that indicates it is likely not true. I invited you to comeback when you evidence that it is true. A belief is not proof and you have the burden of proof.

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  9. The Mormon faith is one of the greatest frauds of all time. Here is some evidence for you. It was thought that the Native Americans were decendants of the Lamanites, well DNA testing proved that wrong. How about the huge battle on the Hill Cumorah? Thousands supposedly died there, but there is no archeological evidence of such a huge battle, or the steel weaponry they used. There are dozens of other contradictions within just the Mormon faith, let alone any other religion.

    Bearing your testimony doesn't prove anything, it is the equivilant of saying "I Believe it is true, because I believe it is true." You have offered no proof of your claims.

    As for doing good, you don't need faith to do that. Empathy is an intrinsic human emotion. Only sociopaths etc. don't have it.

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  10. As an old, high school debator, I believe that, "He who asserts, must prove". And any one who asserts there is a, "God", with no proof, and especially, Mormons, who have fallen for a PROVEN charlitain, who was convicted of crimes and fraud, have a LONG way to go to prove what they believe. Am I, "anti-Mormon" as I've been accused of being? NO, dumbass! I just don't believe your bullshit. I'm an atheist! I don't belive ANY religion. Well spoken, well, said, Dudley! Calling bullshit, bullshit is much needed in this country.

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  11. Dave, here's why I believe Curmudgeon is wasting his time addressing your posts. But I'm anxious to have you prove me wrong.

    First, we all think we are more critically minded than we really are; this is classic confirmation bias. Of course you believe your 'faith' to be of your own make, through rational thought and study, among other things.

    Let's test that claim. (1) How many other religions did you join before Mormonism? At what age did you join Mormonism? (2) What do you think is the strongest claim _against_ Mormonism? Which claims have you considered and why did you reject them?

    Second, you think you are open minded but portray exactly the common fallacy that closed minded people do: "I'm convinced already. It's up to you to prove me wrong." S'crow pointed this out already and instead of addressing his point you just _claim_ you are right and it's up to someone else to disprove you. (Either you didn't get the point or you are ducking the point.)

    This is a problem on numerous fronts. Not only does it reveal you don't understand the basics of logic or argumentation, but it also can be used directly against you. Have you solidly proved Islam "wrong" to its adherents? If not, then you must join it by your own logic. Have you disproved Scientology, the Unification Church, and Jehovah's Witnesses? If not, then you must join with them. Every major faith is based on people who "know" they are right. Do you honestly think it is up to everyone else to disprove them? If not, why are you a special case?

    Third, you introduce a number of faith-claim problems in your longer post, all without showing you can address their counter-arguments.

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  12. [continued]
    Examples:

    (a) You used personal prayer and meditation as part of your faith building. Great. Have you looked at scientific evidence showing these practices help instill more firm belief in us toward the beliefs we are taught (whatever they are, right or wrong)? If not, how do you claim they are valid being ignorant of their weaknesses? If you have, how do you explain how you overcame those problems?

    (b) You say faith cannot be proved. Great; I agree. But you make a large error in equating the opposite is also true--that is, that faith cannot be disproven. All you need to prove a negative is to show a single contradiction. Since there are literally hundreds in Mormon history and doctrine, the burden is on you to show why these aren't problems. (Usually this is done by apologists through re-definition of terms and/or deflating church authority from prophecy to mere opinion, among other techniques.)

    (c) You say if the LDS church is untrue, then it is one of the best frauds. Well, do you think Islam is true? It's doing much better in recruitment than the LDS church (by a wide margin). Likewise with the fundamentalist / evangelical Christian movements.

    (d) You claim the results of your faith are "good." That's a fine claim to make without evidence. Have you honestly looked at how LDS adherents compare in demographical ratings to members of other belief systems including atheists? How do you account for the most atheistic countries in the world (mostly in northern Europe) besting the U.S. (a far more religious country) in virtually every measure of human happiness and well being? (See the annual Human Development Report, e.g.) How do you explain Utah doing significantly worse than national averages in certain demographics like use of anti-depressants, suicides in certain age groups, and succumbing to fraud?

    Now, for the record, I'm with others: the evidence for their being a "hell" is so low, that I have no concerns over your afterlife (or mine).

    I am interested, however, in whether you can be intellectually honest. Most people I've engaged coming from your point of view cannot be. They will not normally address the points I raise, or maybe just one or two while skirting the rest. They cower in the corner of "testimony" and deflect.

    What is your reaction, Dave? Is Curmudgeon wasting his time? Am I wasting my time? Or are you sincerely interested in comparing notes on faith claims versus evidence?

    (Full disclosure: I was in a similar position to you, not that long ago. As I learned just how impactful cognitive biases have been in my own life in shaping my views subconsciously, and how to start counteracting that, I began examining Mormon doctrines more skeptically. I personally found the weight of evidence to be overwhelmingly against it and have left the church. I'm being up-front with you in my position. Your turn.)

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  13. Why anyone bothers to try to talk sense into the magical thinkers is beyond me. They want the wizard. Even if they acknowledged to themselves there might be a man behind the curtain they would never look for him. They don't want to know.

    That kind of knowledge takes a lot of courage to look for. It's liberating but existentially solitary. You have to be willing to stand alone because there's no mega church corporation propping you up. Freedom is often isolating, exhilarating but singular.

    Remember what Eve said about leaving the garden. It's much like that. You know it is better to pass through sorrow in the lone and dreary world as a free being but until those in the garden eat the fruit they will never understand. Of all the stories in mormonism that is the ONLY One i have taken with me and it remains a powerful source of strength for me even to this day.

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  14. Dave, one brief follow-up.

    I also would encourage you to read this whole Wiki article, but specifically the part about how demanding the other prove you wrong is a logical fallacy:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof#The_fallacy_of_demanding_negative_proof

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